Every month, several more or less local and not-so-local judges and not-yet-judges meet in my area (Frankfurt Main, Germany) in a restaurant for a nice evening. We’re usually around 8 players from Germany, including all kinds of levels (0-3) and experience(ranging from “I want to become a judge” to 15 years judge veteran). This meeting is not a meeting with a previously set schedule, like judge conferences have one. We simply meet, and since we’re all judges, it happens that we discuss and talk quite a bit about judging stuff too (and programming..). To share ideas and that we give not only us, but everyone else too, the opportunity to improve, I make notes about the topics and write about the meeting regularly, with a short break in June.
This is my report from the latest meeting in July.
The topics from this week in a certain order:
1. Rules – Grenzo, Dungeon Warden and Wheel of Sun and Moon
2. Policy – Different Loops: ex Splinter Twin vs. infinite Scry 2
3. Rules – Loyal Pegasus and Alluring Siren attacking restrictions and attacking requirements
4. Policy – Communication: Did I play a land yet?
1. Rules – Grenzo and Wheel of Sun and Moon
We recently had a phone call during our roleplay pen&paper group where 4 of us happen to play together.
It was from an EDH group that wondered how the Wheel of Sun and Moon interacts with the Grenzo, Dungeon Warden.
Andre controls Wheel of Sun and Moon(enchanting Andre) and Grenzo, Dungeon Warden.
He uses the ability of Grenzo, Dungeon Warden. The bottom card is an Ornithopter.
Where will the Ornithopter end up? Bottom of library again or battlefield?
What followed was a quick discussion where the two non-magic-players of the group had literally no idea what’s suddenly going on, as we were probably throwing rules and words they haven’t heard before: replacement effect, public zone, last-known information, hidden zone, private zone, reveal…
Eventually, we answered the phone call with “It will stay at the bottom of your library” and needed some direct requests to continue playing the roleplay game instead of discussing MTG comprehensive rules.. but it stayed in our minds, so we each tried to come up with an actual explanation instead of just the given, intuitive answer.
For deeper knowledge, the question was also posted in the Judge Apps Rules Q & A forum but some of us were not really satisfied with the answer when it was shortly brought up again at the meeting. Maybe this can explain it in other words:
“When Chromescale Drake enters the battlefield, reveal the top three cards of your library. Put all artifact cards revealed this way into your hand and the rest into your graveyard. “
The issue is that Chromescale Drake tries to move a card from a hidden zone (library) to a different zone. For this effect, the card is revealed. Why would it not work for Grenzo, Dungeon Warden?
“Reveal your bottom card and do nothing else with it. If it’s a creature card with , put it into the battlefield“
”Reveal your bottom card and move it to the bottom of your library. If it’s a creature card with , put it into the battlefield”
To understand the difference between those two effects, think about how completely different a similar effect in the form of Information Dealer can be, when there’s one or two wizards on the battlefield.
T: Look at the top X cards of your library, where X is the number of Wizards on the battlefield, then put them back in any order.
At the moment the bottom card is moved somewhere, if the new zone is a hidden zone, it will not move anywhere else. At the moment the game moves it from bottom to bottom, a black coat is put onto it and it will no longer move anywhere, unless it is revealed again. Although the bottom card was initially revealed during the “Put the bottom card of your library to your graveyard” process (revealed by replacement effect of Wheel), it is moved after being revealed. Once that move is done, it has been moved to a hidden zone. Once arrived in the hidden zone, it’d need to be revealed again for it to be affected some way.
With Chromescale Drake, the cards are revealed from a hidden zone, and moved to a hidden zone. That works.
With Grenzo under Wheel, the cards are revealed from a hidden zone, and moved to a hidden zone (practically, not moved). Then, the game wants to do something with the card again, but it’s in a hidden zone, so that’s not gonna happen. And this is why Grenzo doesn’t work well under Wheel of Sun and Moon
2. Policy – Different Loops: ex Splinter Twin vs. infinite Scry 2
With previous discussions on loops in mind,
http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/topic/5580/ – Scry 1
http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/topic/9628/ – Scry 2
http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/topic/3807/ – Petals of Insight Omniscience
we tried to make the difference between loops clear.
a) If a player has some way to iterate through any number of “Scry 2” effects, it’s been established that judges will not allow him to order his complete library through constant Scry 2 actions. We will allow him *some* ordering, if he can explain how he does it (whatever algorithm he uses is fine..) and do it without committing SlowPlay. Rule of thumb, it shouldnt take more than 30 seconds. Typically, that’s enough time to sort the relevant cards on top.
b) If a player has some way to iterate through any number of “Make a Deceiver Exarch token, untap Deceiver Exarch original that’s enchanted with Splinter Twin“, it’s been established that judges will allow him to make any amount of tokens, be it under or over nine thousand.
What is the difference between these loops?
We noticed the main difference is how the loops go on. With Splinter Twin + Deceiver Exarch, you repeat the same sequence over and over. ”Always untap the original Deceiver Exarch.” Technically speaking, since you arrive at the state where you started your loop with precision, we allow to shortcut it.
With Infinite Scry 2 effects, you do not repeat the same sequence over and over. What you need to do is always dependent on the previous decisions. Sure, you could write an algorithm that finds the right decision, but it’ll be an algorithm that requires decisions by the player. These decisions are a skill, which is also why the established ruling is to not let the player stack his complete deck with infinite Scry 2 abilities.
3. Rules – Loyal Pegasus: attacking restrictions and attacking requirement
Arnold controls Loyal Pegasus, Juggernaut and Silent Arbiter enchanted with Oppressive Rays.
In general, his only option is “Attack with just Juggernaut“.
The game requires a legal attack. Now “attacks if able” and “can’t attack unless..” are different things, one is a restriction while the other one is a requirement. The Comprehensive Rules are very clear about the difference, and provide an excellent example:
from Comprehensive Rules:
508.1. First, the active player declares attackers. This turn-based action doesn’t use the stack. To declare attackers, the active player follows the steps below, in order. If at any point during the declaration of attackers, the active player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the declaration is illegal; the game returns to the moment before the declaration (see rule 717, “Handling Illegal Actions”).
508.1c. The active player checks each creature he or she controls to see whether it’s affected by any restrictions (effects that say a creature can’t attack, or that it can’t attack unless some condition is met). If any restrictions are being disobeyed, the declaration of attackers is illegal.
Example: A player controls two creatures, each with a restriction that states “ can’t attack alone.” It’s legal to declare both as attackers.
508.1d. The active player checks each creature he or she controls to see whether it’s affected by any requirements (effects that say a creature must attack, or that it must attack if some condition is met). If the number of requirements that are being obeyed is fewer than the maximum possible number of requirements that could be obeyed without disobeying any restrictions, the declaration of attackers is illegal. If a creature can’t attack unless a player pays a cost, that player is not required to pay that cost, even if attacking with that creature would increase the number of requirements being obeyed.
Example: A player controls two creatures: one that “attacks if able” and one with no abilities. An effect states “No more than one creature can attack each turn.” The only legal attack is for just the creature that “attacks if able” to attack. It’s illegal to attack with the other creature, attack with both, or attack with neither.
He has to attack with only Juggernaut. If he attacked with only Silent Arbiter, he’d not meet the requirement set up by Juggernaut.
Now, Norlax activates Alluring Siren, targetting the Loyal Pegasus during Arnold’s beginning of combat step. What are his options now? What changes when Silent Arbiter dies?
With only the quotes rules extract, everyone, sooner or later understood the correct answer.
L1-readers, can you also figure it out? Comments appreciated.
4. Policy – Communication: Did I play a land yet?
At competitive REL, Ahmed played a land during his turn. He casts Divination to draw two cards. Knowing he already played a land, he then asks his opponent Nidalee: “Did I play a land yet?”
Can he ask that question?
Yes he can, even if he knows the answer already, asking the question is nothing illegal. He doesn’t lie about the gamestate, about free or derived information.
Now, Nidalee, without bad intent/knowledge, incorrectly answers: “No, you didn’t.”
So at this point, Ahmed knows Nidalee believes in some incorrect information. does he have to point it out?
What Nidalee said violates section 4.1 of the MTR: details of past game actions that still affect the game. Yes, this is a CPV. Yes, it is really a CPV, Tournament Error – Communication Policy Violation. If Ahmed notices this as infraction, he has to point it out.
Here’s a short reminder of what the topics were:
1. Rules – Grenzo, Dungeon Warden and Wheel of Sun and Moon
2. Policy – Different Loops: ex Splinter Twin vs. infinite Scry 2
3. Rules – Loyal Pegasus and Alluring Siren attacking restrictions and attacking requirements
4. Policy – Communication: Did I play a land yet?
I’ve been a bit behind with these reports recently. I’ll try to keep them more timed now.